Zulfikar Ali Bhutto Interview in the United States, 1972

TRANSCRIPT

Interviewer: [00:09 - 00:34] We would like to, if it's alright with you, interview you again in September before your trip.  We'd love it. Okay. Obviously not here, but in Pakistan.  But even otherwise, it's a good thing to break journey for a day, for the difference of time What are you going to do now with those six days that you've... 

Mr. President [00:34 - 00:45] We were invited to Britain and France, after the visit to the United States. 

Interviewer [00:44] Oh, so you will go... 

Mr. President [00:45] We might be able to rearrange the dates for those visits. 

Interviewer: [00:45 - 00:45] I see. 

Interviewer [00:47 – 01:02] We just came from Helsinki.  It was very nice up there.  You know, we were up there for the security.  How did the whole thing go?  Well, it was all formal, you know. Everybody...  There were no surprises. I think it was Mentor who caused some little problems. 

Mr. President [01:02 - 01:03] Really?  Yeah. 

Interviewer: [01:03 - 01:07] I think there's an echo on these mics. You hear it? 

Mr. President [01:07 - 01:10] Yes. The volume, I think, will have to go down. 

Interviewer: [01:10 - 01:11] I'm going to tape record it. The volume has to be lowered because there's an echo.  Oh, so the smaller state...  That's better, huh? 

Mr. President [01:22 - 01:23] Yeah. The smaller state will be a little disturbed. 

[01:24 - 01:29] Yeah.  And everybody...  That's alright, isn't it?  I think that'll be good.  We'll hear it. 

Interviewer: [01:29 - 01:46] You do?  Could you lower it just a little more?  And Mentor, as you know, I know you know him, is a very unpredictable man.  But they were all very angry at him.  

Mr. President [01:46] What did he do?

Interviewer [01:47 – 02:00] Well, he wanted Algeria and Tunisia. Oh, I see. And everything has to be consensus. Everything has to be, well, the other countries did not want that.  And so there was an implied threat on his part not to sign the final communique. 

Mr. President [02:01 - 02:01] I see. 

Interviewer [02:01 - 02:37] And then there was this big flap and long speeches and they were getting pretty mad at me. What does that say?  I'm ready to go whenever...  What's he saying?  I'm ready to go whenever you want, Tony.  We got it all. Okay. A little...  Yeah, the thing the other day. What, the little buzz? Yeah.  Yeah, we could...  If you'd like to stand back, I've got you in the picture in the beginning.  And you can move when I want a close shot.  How did your meeting go today?  It's all right. 

Mr. President [02:39 - 02:42] We have good relations. No problems. 

[02:42 – 02:57] silence

Interviewer [02:57 - 03:13] Mr. President, we know that your trip to America has been postponed for a couple of months.  But I wonder if you could tell us exactly why you want to go to the United States.  What is your purpose? 

Mr. President [03:14 – 04:07] In the first place, the president was kind enough to invite me.  And we were happy, extremely happy to respond to the invitation.  As you know, we have long established relations with the United States since the inception of Pakistan.  That was over 25 years ago. We have maintained close relations. And one purpose was to see how we stand today.  So many changes have taken place all over the world.  And we would like to review the state of affairs in the subcontinent, in the Persian Gulf. We flanked the Persian Gulf, discussed the new waves that may come into the Indian Ocean, and a variety of other important problems.  This is what is expected of friends and allies.  And we look forward to that opportunity to have a candid exchange of views, to discuss our relations in depth and in its totality. 

Interviewer [04:08 - 04:10] By new waves, did you mean Russian waves?  

Mr. President [04:10 – 04:51] Well, Russian waves aren't new, but they are new in the Indian Ocean.  It's not that we are against these developments. We just like to know what are the possibilities, how the world is going to move forward. And it's not that we are hostile to such kind of developments.  But it's necessary to understand them, to appreciate them, and to assess their impact on international affairs. International relations move slowly sometimes, but it does move. And then it hits you before you realize where you are if you're not ready for it.  

Interviewer: [04:51 – 04:58] Were you planning on asking the President, President Nixon, for military aid or economic aid? 

Mr. President [05:00 - 06:36] Much fetish has been made out of this question of military assistance to Pakistan. I don't see why Pakistan has been singled out. It's not that we were going to make it an issue. And it's not that we are deeply concerned about the situation in terms of our bilateral relations. The point is, to cut a long story short, there is a treaty relationship between the United States and Pakistan. And coming down to simple terms, it's a question of whether the United States wants to fulfill its treaty obligations to Pakistan or not. The treaty exists. There are two treaties. A treaty of 1954 and a treaty of 1959. These treaties were implemented, but their implementation stopped in 1965. Partially restored again in 1967, again stopped in 1971.  And the United States does not take lightly its commitments, especially if they are written commitments in the form of treaties with friends and allies. At one time, we were regarded as the most allied ally of the United States. And it's a puzzle to us why now people should consider us as the most non-allied ally of the United States. We have our defense problems. We don't want to invade any other country. We want to maintain our territorial integrity. We've lost half the country because military assistance was stopped to Pakistan. And we are concerned with our defense requirements.  Indeed, more concerned than many other countries ought to be.  Because in the last 25 years, there have been six aggressions on Pakistan. 

Interviewer [06:36 – 06:39] Would you, in that case, want to see military aid resumed to Pakistan? 

Mr. President [06:39 - 06:55] We would like to see the treaty remain valid. If it does exist, we'd like to see the treaty implemented.  Would that mean the resumption of - interviewer speaking – note from transcriber)...  Well, that means whatever the treaty says, which it says that Pakistan will receive military assistance from the United States. 

Interviewer [06:55 - 07:00] On the question of Bangladesh, what is holding up recognition of Bangladesh right now? 

Mr. President [07:00 - 08:34] Well, it's what you Americans call a cut issue. It was part of our country. We came into existence after a common struggle. We both struggled together for our independence. We both fought for Pakistan. And Bangladesh was not separated merely because there was some cessationist activity there. There is cessationist activity in many parts of the world. Bangladesh was cut from Pakistan because of naked aggression. And it's not easy for people to reconcile to this kind of tragic upheaval. But, in spite of that, we have been moving forward to try and tell our people that we must reconcile with the new realities. Only recently, the National Assembly of Pakistan has armed me with the authority, by way of a resolution, to recognize Bangladesh at an appropriate time. There are a number of outstanding problems existing between us. The most important of all being the prisoners of war who are being held in India, more than 90,000 of them. And out of these 90,000, about 20,000 are civilians, women and children.  Some of them have been born there and that's the life they have seen.  Then we have other problems, the question of the war trials. We don't see how in equity or under any principle of law or morality such trials can be held. And then, of course, there are questions of our assets and liabilities as a result of the severance. 

[08.38 to 9.01] background noises suggest someone coming in and talking to the interviewer – hushed tones in the background (note by transcriber) 

Interviewer [09:01– 09:38] Is recognition of Bangladesh by Pakistan close? Is it near?  

Mr. President [09:02 - 09:18] It's nearer than what it was a few days ago.  And it can get even nearer depending on how they respond. It requires the two sides to make adjustments. We are prepared to make adjustments. We want good relations with Bangladesh. As I said, they are a part of our country.  Culturally, they are identical to us.  they have the same religion. And as you might have heard, India is not the most favorite country now in Bangladesh. So there is a sentiment, again, being rebuilt for a good relationship with Pakistan. 

Interviewer [09:38 - 09:58] Mr. President, may I ask you my last and inevitable question? A delicate one. Do you think that Watergate has impaired President Nixon's effectiveness as a president, especially in international affairs? There's been much speculation about that. 

Mr. President [09:58 - 10:05] It would be a great misfortune if that were to happen in the United States. 

Interviewer (Mr. President was interrupted due to technical difficulties occurring during the interview – transcriber’s notes) [10:05 - 10:28] There's a noise coming up.  I'm sorry.  Very important question.  I don't want to throw it away. Should we go on that again?  Yeah, you can just go with the President's answer. †

[10:28 – 10:35] background noises 

Interviewer [10:36 – 10:53] We just got a new camera from New York, which we haven't. That's an old timer there.  We have a new camera and we haven't performed sufficient tests on it yet to get going. 

[10:53 - 10:56] silence 

Interviewer [10:57] Go ahead

Mr. President [10:58 - 13:12] It would be a great misfortune if that were to happen.  This is a delicate question, as you have said.  It's delicate for a number of reasons.  And one of the reasons is that it's an internal matter. It's a matter which concerns the American people and their state of affairs, their country's own public morality, and constitutionalism.  So we cannot say anything on it insofar as the internal aspect of it is concerned. But from the external point of view, I have no hesitation in saying that the administration of President Nixon has rendered great services to the cause of international peace.  We have seen it in Asia, how your relations with China have contributed to the betterment of the atmosphere throughout that tragic part of the world which had been tormented by strife and aggression for so long. And we have seen the benefits internationally for the initiatives that his administration has taken in the West.  These are powerful initiatives in the cause of a durable peace.  And this is a mighty contribution by any administration. I'm speaking objectively. We have no ax to grind. But these are objective facts which cannot be denied.  And if there were to be a curtailment of these initiatives or any impingement on the powers and authorities of the executive in these delicate times, it would be a tragedy not for the American people alone. It would be a tragedy for all of us.  And the United States has been described as the most powerful country in the world.  Well, it is a very powerful country.  But now what's going to destroy that power?  Is your own power going to destroy your power? In the sense that if you take things to an extreme, it's alright, within limits. These things must be investigated. They must be looked into.  But you don't beat them to death.  But that's your lookout.  And that's your method. That's the American way of life.  We understand it and we don't understand it. But what we are interested in is America's contribution to world peace. And in this contribution, the present administration has taken very sensible and far-reaching steps. 

Interviewer [13:13 - 13:16] Thank you very much.  If we could have silence for a minute. 

[13:21 - 13:37] Will you ask him questions, Chuck, without the President?  Just one question? Mr. President, what is holding up recognition of Bangladesh? 

[13:38 – 13:44] no reply from the president – transcriber’s notes 

Interviewer [13:45 - 13:50] Thank you very much, sir.  

Mr. President [13:50 - 13:52] Well, I hope the last question... I'm not going to call any complications. 

Interviewer [13:52 - 13:59] No, no, you handled it quite well.  Thank you very much, sir. I appreciate it. 

[13:59 - 14:02] Thank you very much, Mr. President. 

Mr. President [14:02 - 14:04] Thank you. 

Interviewer [14:07 - 14:08] Salam.